Judith
is a managing partner at Kaleel Jamison Consulting Group and
co-author of The Inclusion Breakthrough. Judith
enjoys a first place award based on her pioneering work in promoting
the use of organizational development and effectiveness skills
in diversity work (which is a hallmark of DTUI’s training model)
and her commitment to socially responsible professional ethics.
DTUI students thank Judith for being a wonderful inspiration.
Billy
Vaughn: What is your name, where do you live
and how long have you been in the Diversity and Inclusion profession?
Judith
Katz: My name is Judith Katz, I live in Washington, DC and
I have been doing this work somewhere around 25 to 30 years.
Billy:
What kind of credentials have you acquired along
the way?
Judith:
Life is one. I have a doctorate in Education from the University
of Massachusetts and really the focus of my doctoral work was
in social change. Specifically looking at issues around racism
and what was in it for white people to deal with racism. I got
my degree in 1976 at the University of Massachusetts.
Billy:
You were way ahead of your time.
Judith:
(laughs) And then I taught actually for a few years at the University
of Oklahoma in Psychology and Human Relations, and the courses
I taught there were around racism, sexism, issues around social
change, feminist therapy, all those kind of things, before I
joined Kaleel Jamison.
Billy:
How did you decide to get into that profession?
Judith:
You know, it is funny, I always say that I think the profession
picked me, I don’t think I picked it and it wasn’t a profession
when I started. I really was into black/white encounter groups
in 1969 when I was a college student at Queens College. At that
point in time, obviously, civil rights issues were critical
and important and being highlighted, and really began to look
at the issues around racism. That was kind of where I got my
start, around issues of oppression. So, I would say that in
my finding that I could make a living with my passion is kind
of how I believe that this work picked me. I don’t feel like
I sat down one day and said, “Gee, what am I going to do with
my life? It just kind of evolved over time.
Billy:
Before we talk about the strategies involved in doing your profession,
could you describe some of the fears you had to overcome
in order to start your own consulting and training business?
Judith:
You know, I think what is important to people to understand
is I don’t own my own consulting business. I am a partner with
Fred Miller and the Kaleel Jamison Consulting Group. I joined
Fred in 1985. Kaleel had just died of cancer.
She
was 53 at the time. The firm had been around already for fifteen
years. In some ways it is not being a solo practitioner but
really a part of the firm. We have grown this firm now—at least
at this moment in time. So, I am a co-owner at the firm, but
it is not being in my own business.
Billy:
When you say partner, you mean co-owner?
Judith:
Right, correct. I think the fears always are on one side of
the equation. If you think about it as a profession, can you
make a living? I think the real other side of the fears are
“Who am I to say these things and try to make a change,” and
“How much can I really affect change?” I think that is the issue
that lives with me more on a day-to-day basis. Can I really
have that kind of impact against these issues of oppression,
which are so strong in our organizations, [and] which have molded
themselves in many ways and brought those issues into them?
That’s the biggest challenge I think I face and we face.
Billy:
What were the strategies involved in building your
consulting and training profession once you got to Kaleel Jamison?
Judith:
What I really love about our work is that we really work from
a set of models to practices that guide our interventions. I
think the whole notion of having a strong theory base that gives
clarity about those issues around diversity, issues around inclusion,
issues around culture change, organizational development, are
really critical to our work. I would say that taking the right
work, being focused on what our outcomes are, and really being
crystal clear about what we are trying to accomplish is so critical
to our work with our clients. Then there is a similar set of
issues about our work with bringing people into the firm, making
sure that people not only have the passion for the work but
the expertise. I think passion is nice but I think it is not
sufficient to really make change.
Billy:
One of the things that I’ve noticed is that you and Fred are
pretty terrific in terms of getting your word out there in writing.
Have you found that a valuable strategy? I am sure it is pretty
good for getting the organization on the same page with each
other but how about in terms of boosting your reputation?
Judith:
I would say, that is one of the things that I always had, and
I started writing my first book in 1978. So, I would say that
writing has always been one of the ways I have tried to be a
change agent. I could impact change and impact people’s thinking.
I would say second of all it is one of the ways to get known
and build our practice. I mean that is making presentations,
speaking at conferences, all of those kinds of things. I would
say we don’t market, you know we don’t go around doing sales
calls or any of those kind of things. Really I think the publishing,
the speaking, all of that has been a way to get our voice out
there and to make an impact in the field.
Billy:
What special talent or gift do you believe you
have that people hire you for?
Judith:
Me personally?
Billy:
Let’s try you personally and then talk about the firm.
Judith:
I think the big thing that I bring is my passion but also my
willingness to speak out and use straight talk—that I am really
willing to call it as it is. So, really being honest in organizations.
Trying not to collude. Also I think there is always that fear
of collusion. Being understanding to meet the client where it
is and at the same time trying to transform it, and I think
over the years being more confident in my abilities and the
work, and to take the right work because I think it is easy
to just kind of … – for years I think early on in my practice
I just wanted to get my foot into the door, and I think getting
my foot into the door sometimes means I am really not going
to take work that is really not going anywhere. I think it is
having the conviction of not making things worse for people
and in fact not colluding or raising expectations that can’t
be met.
Billy:
You raise an important issue and that is the difference between
starting out and the kind of compromise you have to make and
the things that you have the privilege considering once you
have gotten some stability in the profession.
Judith:
But I think that is a chicken and egg issue because if you get
a reputation for not doing good work in the beginning you will
never get a reputation for doing good work in the middle. I
think because of my work on racism—if I just think about where
I started—I always had a reputation of speaking truth and calling
it as I thought. So, I think there was a core of that, on average
I would say I did more of the “right work.”
Billy:
I think I was focusing on the “right work” more than I was focusing
on the fact that people have to think about how they are going
to get through the door, get their foot into the door and what
type of compromises they may have to make in terms of their
ultimate way of wanting to do the work and what they need to
consider in just trying to get in. In other words, one can have
these ideals about how they want to do things that could be
actualized, but initially you have to consider balancing out
those values and balance the fact that you are hardly known.
I thought, maybe you could speak to how people might deal with
balancing those two.
Judith:
I think it is how you position yourself in the field. I really
believe people need to be in a corporation and get experience
before going out on their own to begin with. I think that people
need to learn and study and have good mentors that also value
and see their work so they can get the access that they need.
And I would also say, more and more—and maybe that is because
I am in a firm—I really think you can’t do this work alone.
I am always working in a diverse team and working with colleagues
of a lot of dimensions of difference and I think it is hard
to do this work as a solo practitioner, cause I think you are
not modeling the very thing that you say to your clients that
they need. I would also say you have to find other people to
work with and that also makes it easier in some ways.
Billy:
You made a point that has been made several times during this
interview, and part of it I think in a larger picture, you are
saying there is some social responsibility in that you want
to be as inclusive as you possibly can in all the ways in which
you do this work, so that it is not about competing against
one another but it is about how we can affect change in terms
of our own values, collectively by partnering in responsible
ways.
Judith:
I think that is critical and I think what’s critical about it
is what is the end point that people are looking at. Are you
looking at diversity training as the end point, or are you looking
at “I want organizations to be different and if organizations
want to be different then I am here to support them in their
journey.”
Billy:
Well, that is fantastic and the reason I like it is because
I think it really speaks to one reason that I believe it is
important for me to be in this work. And for me to be doing
what I am doing now and that is to consider the ways in which
competence can be raised within the profession itself. I think
it is even more crucial now because things are getting more
competitive and as they get more competitive, people start to
move away from the consciousness that brought them together
early on. I think whatever we can do in order to help people
to continue to focus on the values that underline our work in
this profession will help us stay in alignment.
Judith:
I think that is critical because in many ways I think the profession
quote unquote is being seen as more and more of a market place
issue and not seen as something that has a value and a set of
principles that people really need to adhere to in order to
practice.
Billy:
What are the biggest obstacles for someone starting
out in the profession today from your perspective?
Judith:
I think because so many things have been reduced to a expediency,
I think because so many organizations have to ask you to do
something and the need to please, I think someone starting out
today who is kind of caught in that cannot find their way to
really being successful around that. I think it is tough to
get into this profession, although I think there are a lot of
corners and they need to bring their voice for how they see
the issues today without forgetting the history. I would say,
for example, you can’t do diversity work without knowing about
oppression, but a lot of people don’t want to talk about oppression
anymore. How do you get on the right side of the issues for
today? And they need to bring that voice in current methodologies,
current ways to see things, but without making it so nice that
it glosses over the really hard things.
Billy:
Without giving away all of your secrets, how do
you get organizations to be more open to inclusion?
Judith:
First of all, like I said I think we are very privileged and
fortunate because most organizations come to us. They know of
our work. They know of our reputation. They come to us, but
I think we talk about it in the sense of what are the barriers
that people do in their best work when we look at talent and
I think right now we are in a great time and place around talent.
That really is the issue about the barrier in the organization,
not allowing people to do their best work and to limit talent.
Talent is diverse. But I think as a consultant I need to understand
racism, sexism, heterosexism, and all the isms, and be really
able – I don’t mean I have to name it as such, but I need to
know how to work it. I would say what we in education call more
than training. We are sitting on the same side of the table.
I really see it. It’s not about you are on one side of the table
and I am on the other, you know. You as an African American
man, me as a white woman, but that we are on the same side of
this table trying to make change here. I think that is the shift
and we can both name racism and have different viewpoints of
what we have to do to make change.
Billy:
You are raising another important point from your early work,
writing, more recent actually I have learned something about
white privilege and that brings up for me one of my clients,
I do a lot of one-on-one diversity coaching with managers in
organizations who are mostly European-American who are seeking
help to figure how they can manage in a way that is going to
be effective with their diverse direct reports, and this particular
client is fearful of the organization because he is afraid if
he doesn’t manage well it is going to cause him to lose his
job. My point is there is an impact on European-Americans with
respect to the lack of inclusion as well as across identity
groups.
Judith:
I think the whole issue is each group has work to do and I think
what has changed and shifted in many organizations is that there
is a new set of standards and a new set of competence. And so
what did it? From looking at my white perspective, if you can’t
manage a diverse group of men, if you can’t manage a diverse
group that includes women, you will be less effective and less
competent. I think that is a major piece of what has changed
in organizations and actually the good news is that it is compelling
organizations to change. It begins to become a question of –
it is not blacks in terms of
their situation, or Latinos or whoever – now it is an issue
of the work place has changed and part of the question is because
you have technical skills does not mean you have these other
set of skills and I think it is really…. People are talking
about competence I say, “Lets talking about competence.” Lets
talk about qualifications because it is about all those things
and I would say particularly for the diversity trainer, or somebody
who is doing work on diversity, you have to be really clear
about your own identities whether it is your race, your gender,
your class, whether you are heterosexual or gay or lesbian or
bisexual—any of those things. You have to be clear about all
your different identities because they all play a part in your
work. You have to really have the sense and knowledge of yourself,
let alone just a set of skills. I think the personal work is
such a critical part of this. Not just about where you might
be in a group, but also where
you want to be.
Billy:
That brings us to our next question we have touched upon several
times. I think it will be important to concentrate a little
bit more on what are the most important personal characteristics
for this kind of work.
Judith:
I think somebody who is really open and willing to learn. Somebody
who can partner well with others, I think you need to have a
strong theory base about change, about diversity, about inclusion
which means both an understanding of history, as well as the
current. I think you have to have self knowledge. The best instrument
we have is ourselves as an instrument. No matter how many books
you read, unless you are able to work yourself and deal with
your feelings and the moments and transform that into knowledge,
I think you won’t be very effective in this work. And I think
you have to be very clear about a success model. Do you have
a theory base that you are working from and clarity about outcomes
or what is good? I think you have to able to connect your head
and your heart, and I think you have to be rigorous so I would
say people need a certain rigor in doing this work. I would
believe good intentions are not enough, the issue is what you’re
capable of. And to me I don’t care, intentions are great and
nice and go do your charity work, bye. The real question is,
are you clear about your impact? The first statement in any
OD or organization development work—first rule—is do no harm.
To me those are some of the things that are critical.
Billy:
Are you a member of any professional organizations?
Judith:
Quiet a few, ODN (Organization, Develop and Network), NTL, ASTD,
Social Venture Network which is an organization of social responsible
companies, I am on the board of Directors of an organization
of 300 companies, mostly CEOs, business leaders who are really
committed to social responsibility. We try to create a new set
of standards of what it means to be socially responsible, probably
some others, also on the board of the Center for European-American
Studies as well. But I think the point is, I go to conferences.
I go to a lot because I really think it is important to just
keep on being out there and learning from other people.
Billy:
You continue to work on inclusion even when you think you have
been successful.
Judith:
And I think there are always different issues, right now a big
issue for my clients, in addition to focusing on race and gender,
is there happens to be about young people that are coming in
their twenties and early thirties who are not going to sit and
wait. So, the whole shift in organizations where the hierarchy
is so powerful and the notion or waiting in your seat and waiting
your turn is just not going to work. Many of these organizations
don’t have a clue what’s in store for them unless they pay attention
to this issue. One of the senior managers I worked with recently
said, “Well, they are just going to have to learn?” You are
going to have to learn. You need them more than they need you.
And I think that is part of what’s exciting about the ground
shifting is that many of these organizations they are going
to be in such a demand for talent at all levels, the person
who have been there and those person in the division as much
as the person who is seen as the up and coming. And that is
a major shift.
Billy:
What would you recommend to someone starting out
in this business?
Judith:
I think they need a really solid education. They really need
to be working in organizations to understand from the inside
how it works. I would say they need good mentors and identify
people they respect and can learn from and I think those things
can help, and be clear what your niche is and what you bring
that’s a value. You can’t be all things to people, so be clear
what you can and cannot do. I think having that clarity about
boundaries is very important.
Billy:
We have heard that a few times. That is good.
Judith:
To be able to differentiate yourself. And again, “What’s your
value added?”
Billy:
How do you charge for training workshops and consultations?
Judith:
We don’t just take on a training workshop usually, so normally
our work would be what we call strategic culture change. We
are in an organization two to three years usually. But we do
charge by the day. Our services are by the day and we are kind
of at the top in the market. If we are doing an educational
event, it is not uncommon that it will be a two or three day
event. We always do interviews before we do any kind of education.
We would not walk in cold, and we don’t do canned programs.
Usually I work at least minimally with two or three staff. It
is an undertaking. It is not unusual for a workshop to cost
$40,000, but that is put in the context of the long-term efforts.
Billy:
So, you would not do even an assessment of the
needs without having at least one other person working with
you?
Judith:
Correct. I think you always need another pair of eyes, and I
think part of this whole notion about diversity is seeing it
from different angles. As much as I know, there are a lot of
things that I miss, and it is a luxury to be able to bring in
somebody else, or bring in a team. But it is not uncommon for
us to have a team with six or seven people working with a client.
Billy:
Would you mind sharing with us your annual income?
Judith:
Yes! It is a lot, I make more money that some of the CEOs I
work with. I am at the top of my game right now and I feel that
and I co-own a firm. I would say that compared to some of our
clients, I make more money.
Billy:
What kind of training or education is necessary
to be successful in this business?
Judith:
I always have a funny thing about this because I see so many
times in organizations, they said, I got here through this and
this route and that is the route to take. I am not sure I want
to say you need a PhD, I don’t need to say this is how I got
here and then that leaves out a whole bunch of people that have
a lot of skills in this area. I think you need a good set of
experience. I think you need knowledge and that knowledge can
come from a lot of different directions, so I would not say
that you have to have a Masters degree, a Doctorate degree,
or a Bachelors. I do think you need theory. I do think you need
self knowledge. I do think you need some experience being in
the real world of work, whatever context you choose to be in
whether in the non-profit world, or school systems, or corporations.
Whatever it is you choose to do, you understand how the systems
work. But I am hesitant to say you need a PhD and five years
experience, blah, blah, blah, because there are a lot of young,
talented people who bring their gifts of whatever it is—their
genius to this work and can be brilliant at it. I don’t want
to fall to the same trap that I see being replicated in all
these organizations.
Billy: How many hours a week do you work?
Judith:
When I read this question, I said, maybe it’s a question of
how many hours I don’t work. I work all the time, I would say
it is not unusual for me to work six or eight hours on the weekend.
I travel. I am on the road 15 – 20 days a month, and I have
to force myself not to work. Sometimes it does not feel like
work, it feels like my life and my passion. As of late I kind
of had to say I am going to stop working ‘now’.
Billy:
I understand. How much vacation do you take?
Judith:
It varies and it is also up to me. I have taken one month for
going to Africa. I usually take two to three weeks a year, spread
over time. It is really hard to take that much time away from
my clients. And with email these days, I get fifty to sixty
or seventy email a day and it just feels like being gone that
long, it is so hard. But it is up to me. I am creating this
life. Nobody is making me do these things. Part of it is I am
driven and I think the scope and intensity of the work, because
it is ongoing with clients, really necessitates me being fully
engaged. It is not uncommon that I meet my clients at least
two days a week or more than that. I only usually take one or
two clients.
Billy:
What would you recommend an individual to do about
taking care of herself or himself personally, given the demand
of this work?
Judith:
I think you really need a good support system. I feel so fortunate
that I have a diverse group of people that I spend time to hang
out with. I feel they watch out for my back. You need people
watching your back in this work. You need people who are going
to be straight with you and honest and tell you when you think
you are doing well and also telling you when you are not. Massages
are a good thing, physically running, taking care of yourself,
eating right, really being aware of your health because this
work kills people. There are some reasons why Kaleel died at
fifty-three, or a lot of people who have been in this field.
I do think that dealing with issues of oppression is devastating
to our being and you can’t help and not internalize it. I think
really being in places where you can deal with your own feelings
of sadness, or anger. It is not uncommon for me to take on my
frustration or get upset at where I see at people in the system
and not to take it on in some way. But not be hooked in such
a way that I can’t bring any brilliance to how to make change,
or to not face the issues am I colluding in. You always need
people who will challenge you and help keep you sane.
Billy:
It took me a very long time to find such people and once you
find them you realize what you have been missing and how valuable
they are.
Judith:
You need a community of people who will be in this with you
for the long haul. One of the great things I love about my partnership
with Fred is that this is a safety net. There is nothing I can
do that will ruin that partnership except to eat his children.
It is that level of trust and we worked through a lot of our
differences over these fifteen years. I think it is having those
kind of partners who will not overlook things and just kind
of collude with you, like “Oh well. I know she is ok so I won’t
deal with the fact because she made that statement.” But people
who will be honest with you and really partner with you, and
also love you. I think you have to come out of a place of love
in this work, even as you deal with your anger and passion about
what oppression does.
Billy:
I agree too. I have been studying compassion and communication,
which is Rosenberg’s work. I have a guy in town here who studied
under him and has done some wonderful work. That has been very
helpful although I think it is sort of mono-cultural for the
type of things that I need right now, it has been very valuable
and helped me transform some relationships in the way that I
talk to folks and the way that I think about what my needs are
and what their possible needs are and how that could be a focus
rather than their personality. I think, all those kind of tools
that you can get really help nurture you rather than put you
at odds with people, which can easily be done in this work.
Judith:
I think the challenges are being understanding without letting
people off the hook. It is so easy if you and I know each other,
it gets to be personal instead of systemic. I think you have
to understand the different levels of the system. You and I
could like each other very well but there are still the issues
of a white woman and an African American man, and how they are
engaging each other, as well s the dynamics of the system. It
is important to not let—in a personally liking each other –
wash over the systemic dimension.
Billy:
I think this is a very valuable contribution to the series that
the audience really should pay attention to and look into in
more depth. How is your life different today, now
that you are in this profession?
Judith:
Well, I feel like I am living the life I want to have and I
feel very fortunate to be living at a time where I can really
impact organizations. I am working with some of the top Fortune
500 companies in this country, influencing CEOs, influencing
people’s lives, paving the waves with others to make this place
better. I feel very, very honored. I think about my mother’s
life, my parents are Holocaust survivors in Germany. My mother
grew up on a farm in Germany. She never went to school. She
was nine years old when they came to this country and I think
about the fact that I am living a very blessed life. I can’t
imagine doing anything else because this has been the life I
have always known but when I think about the work and feeling
like I think this is God’s work in a way, whatever God it is.
I feel very blessed to be able to have an impact with people
and have partnerships and friendships and to be able to do this
work. The possibilities of what this country is about, and those
of us who have to join together in making that realization happen
and that possibility reality. I think we are living in a great
time to be able to have an impact.
Billy:
I do too. The last question I have for you is, Knowing
what you know now, what would you do differently if you were
just starting out today?
Judith:
I think the hardest thing I had to learn was partnership and
I think I really needed to find myself good partners early on
in the process. I think I worked alone for a lot of years and
it was very hard and devastating and I would say to people,
find some partners that you want to have fun with, that you
can help you grow and develop and can do good work with, and
not trying to be some marble person out there. You can’t do
this work alone and none of us are smart as all of us. I think
you have to find other people to be with, who will help to create
the world you want have to create and I would say, don’t try
to be a solo practitioner. Those are my words.
Billy:
Is there any other message you would like to share
with our audience?
Judithy:
I think the only other thing I would say is that being serious
about working in diversity means taking on a very high level
of standards and commitment to change. I think I want people
to really look inside about what’s driving them to do this work.
I can remember early on in my career where I was kind of like
into blaming people and beating them up and I had to learn along
the way that it was not getting me very far. I think you have
to really look at your motives. The most important work that
transformed my thinking was Elizabeth Dodsen-Gray’s work on
patriarchy as a conceptual trap and one of the questions that
was raised was “Could you imagine a world without oppression?”
and “If you could not imagine it, how you are going to create
it?” My question and my challenge to people is if there was
no racism, sexism, heterosexism, all these ism’s, what would
be in its place and if you can’t imagine them not being there
then are you just recreating the system? My question is, what’s
your vision of goodness, and then you have to deal with the
real issues in order to get there. But if you cannot imagine
it, how are you and I are going to be able to create a different
set of behaviors and a different set of norms. That would be
my challenge.
Billy:
I certainly have gotten a lot out of talking to you. It is clear
to me that you are one of top, if not ‘the’ top person in this
profession in this country. I sense that not only in what I
have known about you previously but also in the words that you
have shared with us today. I would like to thank you for your
generous contribution and I know that our audience will get
some really great ideas from you. I hope you find this interview
of value in helping you think about where you have been and
where you are going in your profession.
Judith:
That’s been wonderful and I think the important thing is that
I really value the contribution you are trying to make because
I think hearing people’s thinking about this is helpful
for all of us. This is a moment in time for the young
people coming into this profession, whatever age they are, it
is your commitment to the rigor of hearing those voices of getting
them to be thinking and be thoughtful is crucial. I take my
hat off to you as well. This is about all of us being smarter
and creating something different together and that to me is
important. Thank you Billy.
Billy:
Thank you Judith.
